Switching to 2: The Art and Science of Film and TV Scheduling (Heather Wagner, DGA 1st AD)

“A schedule that sings to me is what I try to get.”

Widely regarded as one of the best ADs working in the industry today, Heather Wagner kicks off this interview series as our first guest to speak about the challenges, joys, and semantics of film and TV scheduling!

Heather shares her insights gained from productions like The Fabelmans, Ahsoka, The Mandalorian, and Silicon Valley - this range of production styles makes her uniquely equipped to handle intimate family stories, sprawling space epics, and everything in between.

We discuss her introduction to the industry, the problems each production brings (and how to get through scheduling-block), the future of scheduling technology, and the best pieces of advice she’s received and given to others.

Stay tuned for the rest of this series bringing to light the often-overlooked hard work of Assistant Directors whose schedules make each production’s gears turn!

Transcript

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Herman Phillips 0:02

Hi, Heather.

Heather Wagner 0:03

Hello!

Herman Phillips 0:04

Thanks so much for joining me. We're doing this series of interviews on scheduling with assistant directors, and as the co-founder of Cinapse, I thought it would be great to start this with you. So I'd love to ask you some questions about scheduling and how you got into it.

Heather Wagner 0:24

Oh, I'd love to answer questions on scheduling. Everyone's thrilled, Iʼm sure.

Herman Phillips 0:29

And, you know, coinciding with the launch of our beta of Cinapse Scheduling, we thought it'd be great timing. So could you tell me a bit about how you first learned to schedule?

Heather Wagner 0:41

Yeah. So early on in my career, I had a lot of very incredibly generous ADs that were willing to share their knowledge with me. I was working as an office PA on the first season of the show Glee, and before and after my shift in the office, I would go and just hang out with the ADs and learn anything that they or the PAs were willing to teach me. So I spent a lot of time at base camp, on set, watching the BG check-in process. And the First AD on that, Danny Silverberg, was kind enough when we got a new script at one point to sit down with me and walk me through how he broke down the scripts. And then, when I was between jobs, I spent a lot of time teaching myself the various programs and practicing breaking down scripts and honing my skills. But I will say I'm still actively learning, you know, as each show is really its own puzzle and has its own unique needs. So I'm constantly picking other ADs' brains or studying other shows' schedules and just gleaning as much information as I can because it is, you know, an active thing that you have to continue to learn how to do.

Herman Phillips 1:48

It's like an art and a science. So it's what you are bringing to it, but also learning from how it's been done in the past. So, what would you say was the first schedule that was really yours that you owned?

Heather Wagner 2:03

So a lot of times when you're starting out as a First, you inherit a lot, right? Because another First starts or takes lead, or it's a second season, and there's already an existing schedule format that's part of the show's language. Of course, you always tweak little things or try to make it more concise or prettier. But you're really filling into an existing machine. So, I'd say Ahsoka was probably the first show that I took lead on. And I broke down the first script almost a year before we started filming, and we cross-boarded all eight episodes. So, you know, we had a massive 165-day, 1000-strip schedule that I was managing.

Herman Phillips 2:44

So how was that first experience on Ahsoka owning that schedule? Do you have any major learning curves or mistakes?

Heather Wagner 2:51

You know, I was incredibly grateful to have done the Fabelmans immediately prior to starting Ahsoka because there are productions like Star Wars Land, which are such massive machines, and the schedule can be driven by 100 different things that shouldn't take priority. But they have to, right, because that's the nature of what we do. But the Fabelmans really helped recenter me and remind me that the consideration should first be to the creative and the director and the cast. And then as you go, obviously, all the real-world work things play a factor. But if you start from a place that is the best for the creative, you know because at the end of the day, we're there to try to serve their vision. So keeping that broader picture in mind and not getting lost in the minutia of every single strip is really important when you start to schedule.

Herman Phillips 3:44

Now, getting into maybe like some of the more of the challenges in scheduling. You know, you mentioned every project is different. So, are there difficulties or challenges that persist from production to production, or would you say it's sort of unique to each production?

Heather Wagner 4:03

Well, you know, you come to every show with a base of knowledge that you've built over the years, and while it's valuable to keep all of that in mind because there are things that, you know, are similar, you still have to come with sort of a fresh eyes and an openness to each new project because it doesn't really matter, you know, “Oh, well, that's how we did on the last show.” It matters how you're gonna do it on this one. And each production has its own difficulties for sure. I mean, on Star Wars, it's like... Star Wars and all that comes with that. On the Fabelmans, we were, you know, creating films within the films, and there were kids, and it was a period piece. On Silicon Valley it was like the sheer amount of screens and tech and all of that we were dealing with. And I also find it's really valuable to make sure you're including the producers and creatives in scheduling conversations because understanding the vision and how we want to accomplish it is key to really making a schedule that sings. I like that. A schedule that sings to me is where I try to get.

Herman Phillips 5:07

And I imagine it also has to do with how the director wants to maybe shoot the film in the order that they might want to do specific scenes in and taking that into account.

Heather Wagner 5:20

Absolutely. Yeah.

Herman Phillips 5:21

So do you reach a point ever where, you know, if you're feeling lost or stuck, are there things that you do when you go back to the schedule to get unstuck and unblocked from a certain, you know, shooting order?

Heather Wagner 5:35

Yeah. and there are definitely times when you're painted into a corner because of cast availability and location limitations and art department changeovers and all of those different things. So in those moments, I really try to take a step back, and I go into a mode I like to call vision questing, which is to say-

Herman Phillips 5:54

-a Silicon Valley reference there.

Heather Wagner 5:57

I really try to um free myself from what I think the pillars of the schedule are and start fresh. So it's like, what would it look like if I went bigger to try to solve this problem? What if I free myself from these assumptions of like, oh, well, we have to start here, we have to do this, and only start with the considerations I absolutely have to keep in mind, right? Like this actor is not available this week, but otherwise, anything else could be redone. And reconstructing a four-month schedule from a blank page is absolute madness, but sometimes it is the only way out, and at the end of the day, there are times that the puzzle pieces will not fit. And at that point, you just have to go to the producers and be like, well, you get to make a decision about, right?

Herman Phillips 6:46

Is there a show or a film that you would you say really pushed you when it came to making those sorts of hard scheduling decisions?

Heather Wagner 6:54

I mean, I would definitely say Star Wars is a beast of its own because you think you'renot dealing with cast availability issues or director availability issues. But you are because they're casting big names in this stuff. And there are so many considerations in moving parts because everything, absolutely everything, has to be designed, approved, and then made from scratch, right? So you're talking about the VFX Volume load reviews, the art department builds, prop manufacturing, wardrobe fabrication. So if I need to pull a scene up to Friday, say an art department might have the set ready, the physical set? Great. But will VFX have the virtual environment ready? Will costumes have that new robe? Has stunts rehearsed the wire piece? Does props have those specialty weapons? Has the cast trained on the choreography? You know, and so there's really no other show I can think of that exemplifies that domino effect. The change schedule can have as those kind of big Lucasfilm shows.

Herman Phillips 7:57

You mentioned the background fittings like on Mando; I remember those started, you know, months in advance of principal photography. So if you change a scene, obviously, all of that you said has a cascading effect. But as you're starting a new schedule, what do you really keep in mind? Are there specific priorities, which I'm guessing also changes from show to show? Are there things that, outside of talking to, you know, the director, the producers, you're just handed the script, sort of, what's your first take at it? Your specific priorities then?

Heather Wagner 8:40

So, you know, as we talked about, so much of scheduling is understanding that creative vision and the personalities and how the director wants to tackle the work. So having some of those conversations early on is really helpful and then also just sort of just how they want to manage things. So do we want to play back the films practically, or is it going to be the effects burn in later? If there's a lot of training for a sequence like horseback riding or sword fighting, does that need to come later in theschedule to give the cast time to train on that? Does the director want to have certain emotional or intimate scenes saved for later in the script or is it better to have some of those early on to really break that ice? I've always tried to that first week, if it's a very makable week, it builds a lot of confidence in the crew and the producers in the studio. And it also allows space for those sorts of uh teething pains that are a part of getting into the groove of any project. Right. So I always try to keep in mind the creative and then what's a good first week to make, you know, to get us off on the right foot.

Herman Phillips 9:48

To start on the right tone and make sure everyone has that successful first week in going into the rest of the show with that confidence.

Heather Wagner 9:59

Yeah, because nothing is more depressing, and I've worked on shows like this, where you don't make a single day in the first three weeks and that carries the whole season or the whole shoot. You feel that like, oh God, we can't even make a day even when you start making your days. So I find that first week is really key to “we can do this.”

Herman Phillips 10:19

You've been scheduling now for a number of years. What's the process of breaking it down and how has it changed over time for you in building schedules?

Heather Wagner 10:31

Well, I'm going to age myself here as I love to do; when I was a PA almost 20 years ago in Hollywood, smartphones did not exist. And so that alone, the ubiquity of smartphones and everyone having a computer in their pocket has completely changed the landscape of how we do our jobs, how we communicate, how quickly we're expected to respond to every little change. And honestly, sadly, the limitations in previous scheduling programs available to ADs have really restrained a lot of innovation on our end, you know. The rest of the industry is leagues ahead of us in advancing their processes. You know, there's streaming, there's the Volume, there's

face replacement technology, there's new camera rigs, and technology is used in such incredible ways across our industry. And I really do think the ADs are next, I mean, Cinapse and what we're developing will finally bring us up to pace with like our modern and innovative industry.

Herman Phillips 11:31

Absolutely. So along that same line where everything is advancing in front of the camera, and we're sort of left behind, currently, how long does it take you to break down a script? And what would make that easier?

Heather Wagner 11:44

Well, in terms of my process, the first thing I do is try to just read the script and free myself from the AD breakdown so that I just can learn the characters, learn the story and know what's going on because I find if I have my pen out or you know, my tablet pen and I'm ready to start breaking it down, I'm not again thinking about that bigger vision. So I'll do a first cold read of the script, and then break down the script in terms of scheduling. I will say the most tedious part is that data entry of taking everything from my broken-down script and turning it into strips in the one-liner. So the length of time really depends on the number of elements and the length of script and number of scenes. But I'd say an initial, you know, cold read of the script and breakdown and building out the schedule, just the sequential usually takes me a few hours. You know, if I'm being meticulous. And there are so many things that would make it easier. I mean, if the scheduling program could import the script I broke down and create those initial scripts strips, if my second AD could be in there cleaning things up and double-checking everything as we're receiving new changes or I'm putting in new stuff, you know if I could add strips from other episodes that are shooting on the same day as my block and not have to type all that information again, but I could just take it from the other ad schedule. You know, there are so many ways to streamline our process and we're so ready for that.

Herman Phillips 13:10

Yes. And Cinapse Scheduling is doing all of that very soon and is already doing big parts of that, like real time collaboration and then soon being able to actually up you upload your script and have those initial strips in there for you to go in and flesh out. So now, sort of looking back, Heather, on your time as a First AD, as a Second AD, basically every type of AD, what type of director would you say makes a great partner as an Assistant Director and/or what types of department heads?

Heather Wagner 13:50

Yeah. I mean, in terms of directors, the directors with a clear vision are the best partners, right? If they aren't sure what they want, it's really difficult to make sure that you're giving them what they need. I often say the main job, the only job of the director, is to make decisions, you know, and the crew is really smart. They know when a director is shooting options and not choices, and it'll really start to wear them down because they see it, right? In terms of department heads, I'd say, you know, I really like working with people who are passionate and respectful because we're all there to do a job, get our hands dirty, make a movie. It's a team sport and the best department heads I've worked with definitely understand that we're all in this together to support each other so that everyone can succeed.

Herman Phillips 14:44

Yeah, we're not working against each other, right? We're working together. And do you have any advice that has stuck with you, over the years, about scheduling?

Heather Wagner 14:56

Well, I had an AD once talking about how the schedule has to work for every single department and even change the day based on the fact that our BG casting people couldn't get as high a quality of people as they wanted because another show had like 1000 people casting call that day, so they were eating up all the people we would have needed. But it really stuck with me to see him change a whole schedule to help out BG casting. And if it works for everybody else but kills props, then what can we do to help alleviate the pressure on props, you know, taking every single department's needs into consideration when scheduling is key. And I actually do sit downs in pre-production with every single department and talk through the schedule and on big shows like Star Wars, I have a weekly standing meeting in pre-production with each department to talk through some of the coming changes, if they have any questions. And it really has helped us keep the schedule because then I'm not hearing the week before that something's not going to be ready because I talk to them every week.

Herman Phillips 16:04

So, Heather, what excites you about the future of the industry, about the future of assistant directing, of scheduling?

Heather Wagner 16:12

You know, my number one word is collaboration because there is no First AD that can do what we do without our Second ADS, and with how quickly we are now expected to work and to react instantly to changes that are constantly coming in, you know, me having a file on my desktop does not help me communicate to my team or the crew as a whole. So having a modern scheduling tool in Cinapse that keeps pace with our intense jobs is a real game changer. So I'm very excited about that.

Herman Phillips 16:47

Last two questions I have for you. What's your favorite on-set term? And what's a piece of advice that you would give to up-and-coming ADs?

Heather Wagner 16:59

So my favorite on-set term, I was on a particularly difficult show, and we started using the term 10-3, which stood for a hide and cry. So if you were having a really rough day or just a negative moment, you'd be like, hey guys, I'm gonna step 10-3 for a minute, and it would never fail to make us all laugh. So I think it had the effect of lifting the spirits of the crew. But it was also this little inside joke of, like, I just need to 10-3 quick, little quick hide and cry. I'll be right back. So I still laugh when I think about that.

Herman Phillips 17:33

It’s so good. I could have used that term on a couple of shows. And then favorite piece of advice?

Heather Wagner 17:41

So the piece of advice I guess I'd give to new ADs or PAs or people just starting out in the industry is something that my grandfather, who was a dairy farmer, used to say, that when you're green, you're growing and when you think you're ripe you rot. And so to always, you know, it's sort of an insult sometimes in our industry to say, oh, they're so green. But my thing is always stay green, stay growing, stay pushing. And even with this technology stuff, if the tools don't exist, build them. If you don't know something, learn it. If you know, you have to constantly be growing and learning and just stay green.

Herman Phillips 18:21

You shared this with me before, and I love that piece of advice because I think it really speaks to having that sort of growth mindset that you can always be improving and growing. Thank you so much, Heather. This was a lot of fun, and we'll come back another week with another AD and do this again.

Heather Wagner 18:39

I can't wait to hear what they say. I'm going to take all that advice they give, and I'll keep that for myself.

Herman Phillips 18:45

Amazing. All right. Thanks, Heather!