Switching to 2: The Art and Science of Film and TV Scheduling (Sally Brunski, DGA 1st AD)
There is no budget, no shot list, no plan for production without the schedule, carefully crafted by the Assistant Director. Each cast and crew member, producer, and executive relies on this map to understand the road ahead.
And yet, Assistant Directors are rarely interviewed. They are the unsung heroes of physical production, and without them and their expertise, their craft of scheduling and operating a set, movies and shows simply wouldn't get made.
On this episode of Switching to 2: The Art and Science of Film and TV Scheduling, DGA First Assistant Director Sally Brunski brings insights, advice, and levity from her time working on shows like Euphoria, Vida, Room 104, Barry, and Silicon Valley.
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Transcript:
Herman Phillips:
Welcome to Switching to 2, a Cinapse podcast, where we discuss the art and science of film and TV scheduling with top assistant directors in the industry. I'm Herman Phillips, co-founder at Cinapse and your host.
There is no budget, no shot list, no plan for production without the schedule carefully crafted by the Assistant Director. Each cast and crew member, producer, and executive relies on this map to understand the road ahead. And yet, Assistant Directors are rarely interviewed. They are the unsung heroes of physical production, and without them and their expertise, their craft of scheduling and operating a set, movies and shows simply wouldn't get made.
Today, I sat down with DGA 1st AD Sally Brunski, who brings insights from her time working on shows like Euphoria, Vida, Room 104, Barry, and Silicon Valley. I had the pleasure of working with Sally on HBO’s Euphoria for about nine months straight, and Sally certainly made those nine months bearable by bringing her energetic spirit and humor to set every single day. In this episode, we discuss creative problem-solving in pre-production, the nuances of crossboarding, finding levity on set, and much more. Hope you enjoy.
Herman Phillips:
Hi Sally, thanks so much for joining me today, I really appreciate it. It's great to see your face. It's been a really long time since we've worked together. Thanks for joining me.
Sally Brunski:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored and hope I make some sort of sense, but it's so good to see you, too.
Herman Phillips:
100%. Yeah, I'm very excited to pick your brain on scheduling because I know we obviously worked together on a really tough show, Euphoria, which had a crazy schedule that spanned nine months-
Sally Brunski:
Yes, it did!
Herman Phillips:
-for season one, at least. We originally met on the pilot of Euphoria. You were coming in for some prep on it.
Sally Brunski:
To help schedule. That's funny. Yeah, I did.
Herman Phillips:
Yeah, to help schedule. So yes, and that schedule is also fully crossboarded essentially into two blocks across nine months. Right?
Sally Brunski:
Yeah. Well, the first season was more individual episodes or like two episodes together. And then this last second season, we sort of, we crossboarded the first four episodes and then crossboarded the last four episodes, but then pieces from both sides kind of come in because you've always got to deal with location availability and actor availability and, you know, seasons. If you know your lush green hill is not lush and green, you have to save that for a different month. So there are lots of different things to consider.
Herman Phillips:
So Sally, you were a DGA trainee, and did you get any experience scheduling while you were doing that, or was it really when you actually started Firsting or while you're working as a Key Second that you got into scheduling?
Sally Brunski:
Yeah, I mean, you get a little bit of training, but it's a lot more kind of like reading the schedules and understanding and why they're like that. And you know, a lot of times people come in and say, why do we have to do this? This is so terrible. It's that we have to wait an hour, and then there's a costume- and then you say, well, there's this availability and this availability and this, and we need to switch over this. So it's really good to start understanding how to read it and be able to explain the foundation of the schedule whether you're making it or not. And then for me, as I came up as a key, I had Firsts who were, one, really good at sharing information and also really, really good and helpful, and they would listen and say, what else could we do? What are some ideas? So just that back and forth was a great learning experience. And then eventually, you know, sometimes the Firsts, you know, we're so busy on set that a Second AD has to do something quickly. And so then you get the information, and you sort of start to think about how you could do it or what could work because a lot of times the key seconds know so much more about actor availability and is the costume ready? And when's the set going to be fully dressed and can take that to the first and say, I love your idea. But here's what I know, and then we kind of work together. And so that was one of the ways. And then I think ultimately to, to truly learn, I'd have friends that were doing a short film or an indie thing or something that wasn't necessarily, you know, what I was working on as a trainee. And I would say, please let me break it down, which is really helpful for them because as a director or, you know, a different creative leader, you're not necessarily gung ho or excited or really know how to schedule and what would be best. So then I would take those different scripts and break it down for them and, you know, explain why I thought it could, why it could be that way. And then they'd say. Okay, great. But we found this location that can only shoot on Sunday. So, can you do a different iteration? So it was practice and sort of being excited about the challenge and doing it on your own to learn. That's, that was sort of my, the way I came up.
Herman Phillips:
Figuring out the puzzle as you go, right?
Sally Brunski:
Exactly.
Herman Phillips:
So which production, show or film, was the first one that you really owned the schedule in?
Sally Brunski:
Room 104, which was an HBO show. The Duplass Brothers. Amazing.
Herman Phillips:
Amazing. Yes, love it.
Sally Brunski:
It was, it was an amazing show to work on both creatively and, you know, we got to get sleep at night. But the interesting part about that show is, it's called Room 104 because it's set in one room, one hotel room, and we would shoot two-day episodes. A big, huge episode would be three days.
Herman Phillips:
The dream.
Sally Brunski:
So, at first, I was really intimidated because I'm like, it's still a 30-minute episode. Like, how do you fit it in there? But then you realize, okay, well, we're not changing over the episode. You know, we're not changing over the room, we're not changing their costumes, we can get really creative with this. And then, you know, there are some episodes where there are crazy changeovers, and you really have to think, ok, well, we have to do this first, and that's something that the art department can do at night. And it was, it was a really good way to, you know, to sink my teeth into it for lack of a better term. And also, it was such a creative and problem-solving group that if there was a challenge that I couldn't see how to figure it out, the art department would be like, well, here's an idea. Our line producer was very helpful with scheduling would always, you know, give ideas and, you know, I was very open, and I was still learning and he had kind of given, given me the shot to be a First AD so I would go to him and say, here's what I'm thinking, you know, and I'd think, oh my God, he's gonna grade my homework and he's gonna be like, you fail, and he'd be like, great, great. And I'd be like, really?
Herman Phillips:
And you're talking about Tyler Romery, the line producer who came up as an AD, right?
Sally Brunski:
Yes, I would bring it to him and he'd be like, we're not doing that and I'd say, OK, what are we doing? No, but he would have, you would have like a reason, you know, an actor is not available on that day. So it's gonna have to be this. So let's go back to the drawing board, but he was very, very helpful in that. And because we did two seasons together. So it was like 24 episodes. And, you know-
Herman Phillips:
Oh, so you shot two seasons in one go.
Sally Brunski:
Yeah, because when you do 24 episodes of two-day shoots, you can shoot a lot. So I was able, I was breaking down 12 scripts and doing 12 schedules and obviously, with one schedule, there are 172 different variations. So, that was amazing. But then going to bigger shows with longer days and more locations that, I was sort of like, all right, here we go, let's do it. But I felt like I had a really good foundation from, you know, my own practice and then also people supporting me and helping me think of, you know, ways to problem solve. So that when I went on to my, I did a pilot after that which was also a smaller, shorter thing, but still tricky because it was big and it was three days. And then I went on to Vida, which was a Starz show and had a lot, it was season. So there were a lot of things that were already in place of like where we, where we film this, where we film this, how that works, you know, what we do, you know what we pair together. So going in and learning that, but also just the new restrictions on, you know, you come back for season two, and a neighborhood can be completely different and, you know, they used to love when you film there, and now they don't, or a place that you couldn't get into before really wants you to come back. So, I had a supportive team. Yeah.
Herman Phillips:
Now the shows come out, and they like it. They really want you to come back there.
Sally Brunski:
Like, just kidding. Come on back.
Herman Phillips:
I'm sure, you know, it's difficult stepping into a show that's already set up in its first season and had a certain pattern. Were any of the other ADs from season one also there or were you stepping in as a fresh AD team for that season?
Sally Brunski:
Yeah, I think we were fresh? But our 2nd 2nd had been there and that was actually really helpful because even when you're not, you know, Herman, we've worked together. So, you know, I'm not lying, but I, for better, for worse, tend to want to involve a lot of people to give ideas. So if a schedule comes out, you know, the 2nd 2nd would look at it and say, I don't know about this because this actor's personality is a little, and I'd say great, give that to me, like, let's change it in the next draft. So luckily the line producer who I knew had been there season one and she and the production supervisor were really, and the UPM were really supportive and sort of gave me all the information for me to, you know, have a great foundation to the schedules. But then I would definitely take the advice of, you know, the costume designer who had done both seasons and the 2nd 2nd and, you know, a slew of people that would say this will work, this won't work. And the showrunner too, I mean, she was really, she was hands-on too and, and, you know, in even a tone meeting, if something scheduling related came up or she would say, I really, I want this scene to feel like this or be shot like this or take this long, then that affects the schedule too. So there's always someone, whether you know, early or late that you can get advice from, you're like, please, you know, the first AC, tell me, tell me what will work and what won’t.
Herman Phillips:
I mean, I was gonna ask, too, you know, involving other people in the conversation around scheduling, department heads or whoever it may be, does that often happen, would you say, in production meetings or just sort of in one on one conversations when you're meeting with them? How do you sort of navigate that feedback?
Sally Brunski:
I mean, I feel like production meetings have really, because the prep schedules are always so tight, production meetings for better or for worse can sometimes be like we got to get through this. There are six departments to talk about in every scene. So that's really almost like going through the highlights of what we've all decided. So, as a First and, you know, a lot of people that I came up with and that have similar styles or I have similar styles to would do the same where it's like we got, we're gonna have department head meetings with the director, but let's also have a department head meeting, not with the director, not because we don't want them creatively involved, but maybe he doesn't want to know about all of the costume changes and-
Herman Phillips:
All the minutia.
Sally Brunski:
-and the production designer saying it's literally impossible for us to shoot this and then destroy that set and then build another one, and you want to do it the next day. So, I really, you know, when you're doing a draft of the schedule, you wanna go over obviously with the director, the line producer, you know, it can even be my, you know, cohort on Euphoria, Val and Alex, who did the 1st block of season two, we would sit there together and be like, ok, catch my mistakes. Like why doesn't this work? What works, et cetera? And it's a very, you know, teamwork-oriented thing because it's so difficult and there's so much information you need someone double checking you. But you also have to get that information, and sometimes the departments are still trying to figure out, you know? Oh, it's a, it's the prom, ok. Or, you know, it's the winter formal. What, what are their looks? How many look, which characters are in? So you're helping break it down to help them, you know, decide on those creative things, and then those creative things turn into logistical things, and then you take them back and put them in. So I think getting as much information as you can to help the schedule is amazing. But many shows that we work on now, you don't have the luxury of that time. So it's a lot of, hey, I made this schedule, look it over, tell me red flags and we can, and we can go from there. But yeah, it's tricky and also, and sometimes, you know, I like to be an informative First, which I know most people do, but sometimes I tend to want to give too much information, which doesn't necessarily backfire. But a lot of times you look at a schedule, and you're like, we have to do what like why do we have to have a night on a Tuesday? This is terrible. And the whole crew is like, are you actually a complete idiot? And you, you want to give them the reasons because you want to defend it and also say, listen, I don't want to work till 6 a.m. on a Tuesday night, but here's the reasoning. But so there's a fine balance between getting the information, having the time to get the information, and then knowing what works to disseminate and what doesn't, you know. You say, hey, it's a cast avail thing, you're not like, well, this person has a premiere- you know, there's certain details that people just don't need to know because they have so much work to do that they just don't need that information. But yeah.
Herman Phillips:
So Sally, when you are first creating a schedule, what is your process for breaking down the script and actually doing that first draft, what does that look like for you?
Sally Brunski:
So when I first get the script, I read it to learn the story that we're telling and why we're breaking down the schedule and what the goal is. And then I go through the script. Not, not normally on paper anymore, usually on my iPad, but, you know, I highlight in one color, all the scenes, the scene numbers, I'll add those if it's, you know, if it's a draft that the script coordinator hasn't yet put everything into. And then I'll go through locations, day/night, the actors. I don't get into the- not the minutia because the minutia of, of props costumes, that's not minutia, that's really important, but sometimes that stuff hasn't been figured out yet. And sometimes,
Herman Phillips:
So you don't really worry about that on your first pass.
Sally Brunski:
My first pass, I normally don't.
Herman Phillips:
First pass is normally broad strokes.
Sally Brunski:
But if it's like a period piece or if it has a lot to do with, a lot to do with different looks I break down. Okay, this person is this person. It's 1957, it's 1982. So that, you know, because I'm not going to put, oh, look, we're in the same location, but it's a different year or - Oh, great. We're, you know, we're in the school bathroom, but someone's in a completely different look, you can't put those scenes right next to each other. So there are some things that you really have to make a note of. I would love if I had all the time in the world to do all of that on my first pass. But normally it's, we gotta get going. What is it looking like? How many days is this gonna, you know, what do you think we need? Because then the script either needs to change or we need to figure out, you know, how to add a day or how to get creative with, with the other episodes that we're shooting. And then I really break everything down, and by breaking it down, you're literally writing out what the scene number is where it takes place, who's in it. If you know the location, great, if you don't know the location, ideas of where it could be. And then you sort of, I sort each one so it can be sort by location, and then within the location, it can be day/night, and then within day night it's an actor's look or which day, which night. And that will really help start to guide the schedule. You can really, I think, get a base of a schedule by doing that first. The tricky part is when you do that, you think great. We just need 67 days. It's fine, and really, you have 5. And you're like, ok, that's cute. That's cute. So that's when you have to get creative. And one of the reason, one of the reasons Euphoria is hard to schedule. I mean, there's a slew of reasons, but there are a lot of vignettes, and there are a lot of flashbacks. So there are only things that on the page take about 1/8 of a page, but it's a story that might take us six hours on set to tell, and it might be a specialty look, it might be a different actor because it might be an actor playing a young version of that actor. So at a certain point, you're like, great. I've got chunks. I've got, you know, the school, I've got this person's house, I've got this person's house, and then you've got just this slew of little pieces that don't necessarily fit together. And that's when you have to figure out how can we get creative, and that's also when it's a great time to, you know, it's always nice to be able to just break it down on your own before. But when you get the script, often the location manager has already already, you know, knows, hey, these locations are gonna be in the next draft. We don't have it, we haven't seen it yet, but I'm gonna start looking, and they'll tell you, hey, we've got, we've got an idea for a grocery store in Burbank. We've got an idea for a gas station in Glendale. You know, there's also a doughnut shop in Burbank that so that might- and they'll kind of give you parameters of where those little pieces might work so that it might not make sense to do, you know, a Sunday church day with a nightclub scene, but it does because they're right next to each other and you can do one during the day and you can easily move to the next. So at first it's just putting the information down and breaking it and really, you know, can sometimes be cathartic of like I'm putting it all pieces into place, and then you've got this puzzle with too many pieces. And so then that's when you can start getting information to help you start sorting and deciding where things can live. And then sometimes it fits and sometimes it doesn't, and when it doesn't fit, sometimes you have to say you have to go to people above you and say, what are, what are some ways we problem solve. And when you get the block, sometimes you can walk away from it. Sometimes I'll literally go to just a different, I'll say, OK, I've been, I've been on my computer and I've been on my iPad. Now, let me get a piece of paper and let me start writing out which days I have that work and, you know, some, I've gone to Excel before. Do I need to Excel to schedule? No, but sometimes it's just a different way to organize the information
Herman Phillips:
A different way of thinking.
Sally Brunski:
Exactly. And you're like, oh, ok. I can, I see, I have that many strips left and this many days and I have these six days that make sense, but I've got four days around that don't. So how can I, you know, so sometimes for me it's just looking at it differently. Sometimes it post its.
Herman Phillips:
Post its, yeah, putting them on the calendar.
Sally Brunski:
I mean, I give Val Johnson more credit for that. That's her jam. She's pretty amazing at it.
Herman Phillips:
So, when you, when you're doing the schedule, is there, like, do you like to start with the really hard work? Do you like to start with the easier stuff? Like, is there a way that you would like to get everyone set up?
Sally Brunski:
I definitely like to get meaty stuff done first. And that doesn't necessarily mean like, oh, well, it has eight pages of dialogue, or it has, you know, 500 background. It could be all different reasons. But you're trying to find a way to sort of get momentum through the day, and if you start with something really small, sometimes that's great. And you're like, we did it, but sometimes it makes it so- Oh, well, we have two hours to do this. Like, no, we don't have two hours to do this. Now for the big scene, we have so much less time. So we can also, I mean, it's, it's normally, I'm looking at the bigger picture first of what is the location, what's the location availability? Which actors are in it? What is their availability? Is it something intimate? Is it something with children? Is it, you know, is there an animal involved? And then, you know, putting those things that are similar together and then, and then going into each of those days and saying, how do we make this the best possible day? But I normally want to try and fit everything in and then make it the best possible day. But if it's a day that just makes sense and clicks, then of course, it's so fun to like make you're like, I got one day on the schedule and it totally makes sense. We're gonna start here. We can have a 7 a.m. call. We can, you know, be making the changeover during sunset and then we can do our, you know, our one night shot and, and make it a day. But that doesn't happen. Yeah, call it a day or make your day. Either one.
Herman Phillips:
Or make, yeah, make the day.
Sally Brunski:
That's always more exciting for AD to make their day than call it a day. What always helps for me in scheduling is having the time to understand the script and having the time to talk to the people that have made creative decisions about the script. So when there's a lack of time that makes it very difficult, because you're having to make assumptions and obviously, those aren't the best, especially on set. And when you don't have enough time to, to confirm with everyone that you've gone through all of those assumptions, that's really hard. I mean, no matter how much time you sort of have to do it, you have to make it work as an AD and you have to make sure everyone knows all, all the assumptions that you've made because you never want to go on set, making an assumption, you haven't asked anyone. But it's nicer to build the schedule off of information and collaboration versus assumptions. And then the teacher gives you a bad grade and then you go back to the drawing board. It's much more fun to have done the research at the library for lack of a better term. And, and then do your report because you have the information and you know what your thesis is gonna be.
Herman Phillips:
So, Sally, are there any traits that you really seek out in your collaborative partners as you know, ADs, directors, department heads, that make a good partner on set in prep and beyond?
Sally Brunski:
I think communication obviously is key. I just sort of, you know, made my case for why I want to be able to go to the library for, for lack of a better analogy. But communication absolutely, whether it's good or bad news, I would just like to know it. I think in our industry, you know, we work hard, and we work long hours no matter what part of the industry that you're in. I mean, we, I know we talk about ADs having, you know, long hours and crazy times, but everyone does and everyone does in their own way. So I personally like empathy. You know, and some, some people are like, well, you know, you shouldn't be giving them the benefit of the doubt. You should, you're the one in charge, you should be figuring this out. But for me, I like to look at things empathetically. I don't think a costumer is trying to slow something down. They're trying to make it amazing, and they're doing these incredible things that if you take a moment to understand what the, what the delay is or, and, and it goes both ways, you know, and when costumers give ADs empathy of, like, I get it. I know this is crazy or hair and makeup of, you know, they're doing something that is a skill that I don't have. So, I like it when people don't assume people are trying to, you know, ruin the situation.
Herman Phillips:
Yeah, they're not intentionally trying to delay the day.
Sally Brunski:
Right, you know, that that can often be because when you're tired, and everyone just wants to go home because you've had a really long day, it's hard, you know, I have it with my kids where you're like, are you kidding me? Like you're asking me for this right now? And then you're like, wait, wait a second, they're six. Let me think about where they're coming from. And I think humor is really important. Obviously, we work on comedies and also intense dramas, and, you know, there's not always a time to laugh on set. You know, we're dealing with a lot of emotions and a lot of stress, but sometimes, you know, we've got to remember truly, we are not, we are not doctors, and we are not surgeons, and we are not astronauts. So sometimes we can just laugh when the special effects tube falls out and sprays somewhere and gives us a little delay. Like, what are we going to do? Let's, like, let's relieve the situation a little bit with some humor.
Herman Phillips:
And that's what I love so much about working with you on Euphoria, which was, you know, a really intense show, that you brought this, you know, sense of humor and levity in some really sort of dark situations on set.
Sally Brunski:
Sometimes it’s just self-deprecation, and everyone's like, oh, yeah, let's not stress about that. Let's just make fun of Sally. But, you know, sometimes it works.
Herman Phillips:
So, Sally, what is your favorite onset term? If you had to pick one?
Sally Brunski:
Well, if we're going with humor because I do have a sense of humor about like a 12-year-old. It's 10-1, of course, it's 10-1 because it's hilarious. I like it the most because I have so many friends that don't work in production, or I have friends that work in the entertainment industry but don't work in production, and they're like, what? Like they went 10-1. Do you have to go? 10-1? Are you, do you think it's 10-2? And they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like, what is happening if you're like, oh, yeah, why do, like, why can't we just say they went to the bathroom? But somewhere along the line, someone was like 10-1. I also like on a bell. I just, sometimes I'll be nowhere near a soundstage with a bell and I still say it. I just, you know, when Herman's on set, he's got his whole, you know, I wish you, you should say it. You should start the podcast.
Herman Phillips:
Maybe that should be the intro to the podcast.
Sally Brunski:
Do it right now. What is it? Like quiet all around. We're rolling. Quiet, all around. Go for it.
Herman Phillips:
Nice and quiet all around, please. We’re rolling
Sally Brunski:
Yeah. There we go. See. It's like I've said on a bell, we're rolling, and then Herman says that, and it's, it's delightful. It makes you feel like you're actually working in Hollywood.
Herman Phillips:
And then a favorite piece or, or a piece of advice that you would give to new ADs or maybe a piece of advice that you had gotten coming up that you would pass along.
Sally Brunski:
Ask for help if you need it. You know, not necessarily like I can't do this, but people are excited to give input, and if you're really at a point where you're like, I just need another set of eyes, it doesn't make you look weak for asking for help. Or, or finding out more information. I think it makes you look like you care about the team and you wanna be a part of the team, and don't forget to laugh.
Herman Phillips:
Yeah, and don't forget to laugh, which yes, very much learned that lesson from you on set. And really glad to have had you on the show today. Thank you so much, and we'll be back next week with some more fantastic ADs.
Sally Brunski:
Thanks, Herman.
Herman Phillips:
Thanks for listening to this episode of Switching to 2. We'll be back soon with more fantastic assistant directors.
